firecat: damiel from wings of desire tasting blood on his fingers. text "i has a flavor!" (Default)
[personal profile] firecat
More noodlings inspired by http://jorm.livejournal.com/94477.html

It's true that social interactions can be smoothed if people follow the same rules.

It's also true that social interactions can be smoothed if people assume good will on the part of other people they're interacting with, rather than making up other kinds of stories about them, such as that they are trying to be insulting or superior.

(What I mean by making up stories: I think that sometimes people make assumptions about what other people intend, and sometimes the assumptions aren't entirely accurate, for one reason or another. Sometimes there's not enough information available because one doesn't know the person well enough or doesn't know everything about the specific situation that person is in at the moment. In those cases I think one has a choice about what assumptions one makes, and the choices can affect one's mood and behavior.)

For example, a person can assume that someone means well but came from another culture where the politeness rules differ. A person can educate themself about other cultures' politeness rules and then use that knowledge to refine the stories that they make up about other people's behavior.

I think it's usually easier for a person to change the stories they make up about other people than to change other people's behavior. So if a person is getting upset partly because they are making assumptions that someone else is being rude or arrogant or self-important, changing the story they're making up might help them feel less upset.

In other cases, the behavior might bother them even if they know there are possibly good-will or legitimate reasons for it. Changing the stories might not help with that.

And sometimes the evidence becomes overwhelming that a person does intend to be insulting or does feel superior, in which case assuming good will might be counterproductive.

More examples (the numbers are based on the numbers in jorm's original post):

1) When a person doesn't say "Thank you" to a compliment, they might come from a culture with different rules about compliments or might be uncomfortable about what they were complimented on. It might not be because they are feigning humility.

5) If a person corrects another person, they might come from a culture where correcting a person is a sign of respect for that person. Maybe they are not trying to show the person up up as stupid.

8) If a person shares their medical diagnosis, this might be an act of trust on their part, rather than an attempt to excuse themselves from following the rules. It might be part of an apology. Some people, when they apologize, start by explaining what led to their actions, and don't mean by the explanation that they should therefore be let off the hook for bad behavior.

9) If someone makes plans and doesn't show up, there might have been an emergency that prevented them from showing up. If someone is late, they might not be very good at estimating how much time it takes them to get somewhere.

15) If someone is sitting in the corner, maybe it's because they are disabled and that's where the host put a chair for them. Maybe it's because they are temporarily taking a break from the conversation. It's not necessarily because they think they're too important to make a social move.

18) If someone uses a calculator to figure the tip, maybe they find arithmetic difficult, or maybe they are from a culture that doesn't include tipping so they aren't used to it. It doesn't necessarily mean they are cheap.

20) If someone replies tersely to an electronic communication, they might be trying to show respect for another person's time (assuming that the person gets lots of e-mail and trying to minimize the amount of effort required to process the e-mail). They aren't necessarily being hostile.

Date: 25 Aug 2008 06:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] on-reserve.livejournal.com
18) If someone uses a calculator to figure the tip, maybe they find arithmetic difficult, or maybe they are from a culture that doesn't include tipping so they aren't used to it. It doesn't necessarily mean they are cheap.

Pardon me for sounding like an asshole, but calculating 10% is very easy - you move a decimal point. And then you double - and that's 20% - why does this need a calculator?

Date: 25 Aug 2008 06:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] innerdoggie.livejournal.com
You might if you have to subtract the tax from the total mentally (some restaurants don't give you the pre-tax total).

Date: 25 Aug 2008 11:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elissaann.livejournal.com
IMO, doing that is part of the same mentality as calculating to the penny to make sure you don't overtip.

Date: 26 Aug 2008 03:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dr-brat.livejournal.com
Well, I'm definitely more likely to subtract the tax if the service was iffy, so, yeah.

Date: 26 Aug 2008 05:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selki.livejournal.com
Or sometimes it's just about wanting to get the math right.

Date: 26 Aug 2008 06:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] innerdoggie.livejournal.com
Huh? I didn't know we were supposed to tip on the tax as well?

Calculating it isn't hard in Chicago, though, since our tax is now ~10%. Ouchy!

Date: 25 Aug 2008 06:45 pm (UTC)
jenk: Faye (Default)
From: [personal profile] jenk
My mother used to ask me if 5 + 8 was 13. Or if 4 + 4 was 8. And she'd always ask what 10% or 15% was. She was always right, mind you, but she'd shake with fear if she tried to write in the check register or on the credit card slip without double-checking the math first.

Apparently she didn't do well in math classes as a kid, got switched repeatedly for bad grades, and continued to be freaked about it ever since.

(Over the years I gave her several electronic calculators, but no, she preferred me or Dad....)

Date: 25 Aug 2008 06:50 pm (UTC)
brooksmoses: (Default)
From: [personal profile] brooksmoses
Because doubling requires carrying and addition? And for some people (like the one I know who has a very mild mathematics-related learning disability), that's difficult?

Also, because 20% is considered a particularly generous tip, and some people desire not to leave a particularly generous tip as their usual default, especially when they don't on average get above-average service?

Date: 25 Aug 2008 06:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kightp.livejournal.com
I don't consider 20% "particularly generous" any longer, given that inflation has an even bigger impact on low-paid service workers than on those of us with reasonably good incomes. And it's certainly easier for me to calculate.

Date: 25 Aug 2008 07:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] on-reserve.livejournal.com
Also, because 20% is considered a particularly generous tip

Where? On Planet Cheapskate? Where I am 20% is considered a minimum for decent service.

Date: 25 Aug 2008 07:33 pm (UTC)
brooksmoses: (Default)
From: [personal profile] brooksmoses
The 'Tip20!' organization, top google hit on "tipping standards", says that 15%-20% is standard.

CNN, quoting the Emily Post Institute, says 15% is normal, 20% is for "very good service", and one should never tip less than 10%.

Wikipedia quotes Fodors as saying, "At restaurants, a 15% tip is typical for waiters; up to 20% may be expected by some waiters at more expensive establishments."

These are in line with pretty much what I've always been taught. And on several occasions I've heard that the customary 17 or 18% added automatically for large parties was somewhat high because large parties are more difficult to deal with.

Date: 25 Aug 2008 07:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] on-reserve.livejournal.com
Large parties *are* more difficult to deal with and they *often* skip out on the tip.

15% is out-dated - it used to be the norm but it isn't anymore - except with cheap people. It used to be the norm that most people didn't go to college yet now, most people do. Hasn't "what you've been taught" ever changed over time? Have you ever been a waiter?

And not for nothing but I don't find that "links on the Internet" prove much of anything.

Date: 25 Aug 2008 09:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dreamalynn.livejournal.com
This is very regional. In Pittsburgh, 15%-18% is still very much a standard with 20% being an indication of beyond usual service.

Of course, this still doesn't address the fact that tipping waitstaff is a fundamentally broken situation and it's ridiculous and offensive for patrons of a restaurant to be deemed the cheap ones because the industry cannot figure out that it needs to, without fail, provide a basic living wage for its employees on its own steam.

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From: [identity profile] selki.livejournal.com - Date: 26 Aug 2008 05:36 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 25 Aug 2008 09:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dr-brat.livejournal.com
Um, most people go to college? Where'd ya get that one?

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Date: 25 Aug 2008 09:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] surelars.livejournal.com
Where? Planets where restaurant staff are, like, you know, salaried. Yeah, I know - difficult concept, but I'm sure you can wrap you head around it if you try. Now, assume for a moment that people travel between planets. Could you imagine that people from other planets might not always find navigating you, umm, culture easy?

With this in mind, go back and read [livejournal.com profile] firecat's post. You might learn something.

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Date: 25 Aug 2008 07:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] on-reserve.livejournal.com
Find - I suppose everyone has a "good reason" or enough excuses to get them through life. You honestly mean to tell me that in a small group/pair that *no one* will know how to take 10% and double that total? If that is true, I am ashamed of our educational system.

Date: 25 Aug 2008 07:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] on-reserve.livejournal.com
It really bothers me because it's petty and annoying. Discreetly is one thing ... under the table but I have seen people make a "big show" of it more than once. I feel like the OP is referring to people who make it obvious to the waiter that they are calculating to the penny.

It is poor manners.

Poor manners bother me.

People who use excuses as to why they are "unable" to adhere to decent manners thus skirt any personal responsibility annoy me.

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Date: 25 Aug 2008 07:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] charlottezweb.livejournal.com
Um. I guess I have enough excuses to get through life, thank goodness, but I never move the decimal. I calculate either $1.50 or $2 for every $10 after rounding the total up. I might want a calculator though if I'm calculating everyone's share and tip separately.

Also, isn't moving the decimal and doubling the same thing as calculating the tip to the penny? I thought that was the original peeve in the post?

Date: 25 Aug 2008 07:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] on-reserve.livejournal.com
I might want a calculator though if I'm calculating everyone's share and tip separately.

Can't you just split the bill? Another instance of people being penny-pinchingly-annoying - needing their exact share.

My "peeve" is people pulling out a calculator with no discretion because leaving the to-the-penny tip is more important than good manners.

I guess I will elaborate further to say: I am talking about people who *care* about the difference between $5.32 and $6 or some such ... amounts less than $1.

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calculators

Date: 26 Aug 2008 03:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] betonica.livejournal.com
It's definitely easy for me to calculate a 20% tip, and I gather that it's very easy for you, too. But it really is hard for a surprisingly large number of people in this society to do even the most basic math in their head. Really, it is. I find it horrifying (rant for another day), but my finding it horrifying doesn't in any way mean it isn't true, and doesn't mean that those people are lazy, stupid, trying to be offensive, or anything else negative you could come up with.

Not that I've actually ever seen someone use a calculator to figure out a tip. But I'd just figure they wanted to get the math right. I would never assume that they were trying to be cheap - that, to me, is really reaching to take offense.

Date: 26 Aug 2008 07:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] johnpalmer.livejournal.com
It doesn't. Unless you're an asshole. Because only assholes panic about math. Only assholes have dyscalculia. Only assholes get flustered. And only assholes grew up with 15% being the expected tip and have to figure one, a half, and sum the result.

And only an asshole would dare show their stinking loser face in public without being able to swiftly perform calculations of that nature. They should remain housebound in their shame until they're able to interact with normal people.

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firecat: damiel from wings of desire tasting blood on his fingers. text "i has a flavor!" (Default)
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